Interviews
Calendar Message Board My Account Email
 
David Nice A Conversation with David Nice

by Andrew Grossman, Prokofiev.org Staff Writer

  09-Dec-2003

 
Prokofiev: From Russia to the West, 1891-1935 by David Nice David Nice is a writer, lecturer and broadcaster on music with a special interest in Russian music. He first took a closer look at Prokofiev's works following a commission to write the program notes for the London Symphony Orchestra's Prokofiev series in 1991, the centenary year of the composer's birth. Later in the 1990s he began work on his Prokofiev biography for Yale University Press, the first volume of which (From Russia to the West, 1891-1935) was published earlier this year and acclaimed as 'definitive' by several critics. David's diversity of musical specialities, which also embraces late romantic symphonic music and opera, is reflected in the range of his contributions to the BBC Music Magazine and Radio 3's CD Review, where he has presented over a dozen programs in its popular 'Building a Library' series. He was one of the two music critics on the Sunday Correspondent during its year of publication and wrote on music for The Guardian's arts page over a five-year period (he now has a new lease of life there contributing obituaries of famous conductors). He has run a highly popular opera appreciation class at London's City Literary Institute for the past fourteen years, and also lectures at Morley College in association with the BBC Symphony Orchestra's concert seasons. He now gives pre-performance talks and writes program notes for all the leading London orchestras. His other books include short studies of Elgar and Tchaikovsky in the Classic FM Lifelines series, a biography of Richard Strauss (Omnibus Press) and The Illustrated Story of Opera (Little, Brown). He has also contributed the chapter on Russian conductors for the recently-published Cambridge Companion to Conducting.

Praise for Prokofiev: From Russia to the West, 1891-1935

It is a confidently written book, densely documented and in factual terms unchallengeably authoritative, the fruit of an imposing amount of thoughtful reading, listening and reflection...for the general and specialist reader alike this will be the first-call source of information about its subject in any language for many years to come.

--G.S. Smith, Times Literary Supplement, 28 November 2003

What a joy it is to come across a publication that can be whole-heartedly recommended, not just to the Prokofiev enthusiast, but to all those with a broader interest in this absorbing period of the twentieth century. Prokofiev biographies are not thin on the ground, but the present study is unusual in its size and scope...Add to this Nice's uncanny knack of isolating the significant moment, and at times we feel transported into Prokofiev's very presence...This sane and well-balanced biography, with its rich insights into Prokofiev the man and his music is surely a 'must-buy' for 2003. The second volume is eagerly awaited.

--Lyn Henderson, The Musical Times Autumn 2003

This handsome volume, the first of a two-part biography, makes a welcome and lasting contribution to the current celebrations marking fifty years since Prokofiev's death...undoubtedly an opus magnum...Prokofiev had an eventful life which he himself partly recorded in an entertaining Short Autobiography, but Nice, whose writing exudes enthusiasm for his subject and for the many comic and bizarre details surrounding it, goes far further. His command of Prokofiev's musical heritage and biographical details...is impressive. What is more, Nice displays great skill in bringing them alive by liberally quoting letters, reviews and other documents, and illustrating the composer's professional career with numerous musical examples...(Nice) has stylistic tricks of his own to give added spice to his writing. How does Nice make his biography so vivid and readable? There is something almost Gogolian in the way minor characters flit in and out of the narrative...The author is to be congratulated on making a timely and lasting contribution to Prokofiev studies. His biography deserves a wide audience of scholars, music lovers and all with an interest in Russian cultural history.

--Professor Arnold McMillin, British East-West Journal Summer-Autumn 2003

Note: All page citations from Prokofiev: From Russia to the West, 1891-1935 are included in parenthesis.

Andrew Grossman: Perhaps I can begin by asking what part Prokofiev played in your upbringing as a budding music critic. Which pieces impressed you most as a child?

David Nice: My way in to Prokofiev was by the usual route of English children -- Peter and the Wolf played to us on gramophone records at school. Though I liked Peter, I can't say it made a personal impression; we just accepted it as one of the handful of prescribed works. I was altogether crazier about Tchaikovsky, though, and it struck me fairly early on that Prokofiev's bird in Peter sounded remarkably similar to Tchaikovsky's Bluebird (voiced by flute and clarinet) in The Sleeping Beauty.

Q: As you got older, which pieces made you realize that Prokofiev was more than just a composer of "light" concert music?

A For many years, I held the standard view of Prokofiev as prankster and master caricaturist. I loved the Bernstein/Israel Philharmonic recording of the Fifth Symphony, especially for the riots of the scherzo and finale. But it wasn't until I heard the Sixth Symphony in a blistering performance from Neeme Järvi and the (then) Scottish National Orchestra at the 1984 Edinburgh Festival that I became an apostle for the Serious Prokofiev. I always felt there was something very private and personal, too, about the Seventh Symphony. And those later piano sonatas as played by Sviatoslav Richter! So I would say that Järvi and Richter were the chief advocates in my adventure. Then, of course, Gergiev, starting with the 1991 Kirov production of War and Peace.

Q: When you set out to write your two-volume biography of Prokofiev, was there a particular view of the composer that you wanted to present to the world? Were there any myths about Prokofiev you wanted to debunk?

A I think we were all aware of the cold-war damage done to Prokofiev's reputation: masterpieces composed in the West, like The Fiery Angel and Chout, had been denounced as decadent by Nestyev and other Soviet writers, and we hadn't really been allowed to hear many of the Soviet works because they had been written off as pure propaganda in Britain and the States. Even the more recent biographies and program notes seemed to buy in to the tags, describing the Fifth Symphony as a 'triumph of the human spirit' -- adopting hook, line, and sinker the party-line jargon Prokofiev himself used for official statements -- while the Seventh Symphony is characterized as 'music for children', and the Eighth Piano Sonata, of all things, as 'nostalgic, retrogressive music.' You only had to listen to realize how wide of the mark it all was. Things began to change in the centenary year, not least with the fireworks of the Cantata for the 20th Anniversary of the October Revolution. The 1990s were a very exciting time for the rehabilitation of Prokofiev's later works. Then there was the image of the man himself: cold, aloof, sarcastic. But that didn't tally with the music; and sure enough, Prokofiev's multi-faceted literary skills, especially in the correspondence held at the archives, began to reveal just how false and simplistic a picture that was. I've always hated the ready-made Western judgments on the relationships between men of genius and dictatorships; after my first book, on Richard Strauss, was published, I couldn't count how many people's first question to me was, "But wasn't Strauss a Nazi?" And despite all the hard work put in by the likes of Järvi and Gergiev, it seems we still have a long way to go with Prokofiev, particularly when a program series like Ashkenazy's "Prokofiev and Shostakovich under Stalin" slants the picture so carelessly, setting the public face of official Prokofiev against the private thoughts of Shostakovich. The concerts were selectively planned in such a way that Prokofiev did come out badly, and the press parroted the party-line all too readily.

Q: That is disturbing. One could just as easily, deceptively, and one-sidedly set the private thoughts of Prokofiev, as represented by the Sixth Piano Sonata and First Violin Sonata, against the public face of Shostakovich, as represented by Song of the Forests and many of his brassy, Soviet-era film scores. Didn't Ashkenazy's series include a concert where On Guard for Peace was performed while large photos of Stalin were projected in the background?

A Indeed. Not that Shostakovich escaped being associated with Stalin in this series -- this association became clear when we saw a Stalin look-alike, the actor Gelovani, in Mikhail Chiaureli's Shostakovich-scored propaganda film The Siege of Berlin (1949). But the thesis -- especially in London, where we didn't even have an admittedly over-slick performance of Prokofiev's Sixth to redress the imbalance a little -- was that Prokofiev did all the public stuff that Shostakovich managed to avoid until after 1948. Maybe people jump to conclusions about an artist's personal life as well. Only a month or so ago an interviewer attacked me terrier-like for Prokofiev's separation from Lina: "How could he have done it? How could he?" And, knowing only angles of the story, one could only say: he was a complex, fallible human being.

Q: In this year, the 50th anniversary of Prokofiev's death, there seems to be a divide in how the English-speaking world stands on his music. I was both amused and saddened to read in your biography Prokofiev's comment from the early 1920's: "In Europe my music is much more loved and appreciated than in America, which is still too backward for me." (192) Even today, in the English-speaking world the most progressive programs of Prokofiev's music are being staged in the United Kingdom, while American critics and audiences are still entrenched in reactionary, conservative debates about Prokofiev's alleged politics. Why is the British musical establishment more enthusiastic than the Americans about embracing Prokofiev?

A Well, first, let's not forget that the situation fluctuated in Prokofiev's lifetime -- by 1926, he was able to see an improvement in American attitudes, and with the rise of the great conductors sympathetic to his music he came to hope for more from America than anywhere else. Then, of course, came the Depression. As for the situation in England, I can only speak for myself, and in the Preface to my biography I attempt briefly to trace my own growing conviction about the (relatively) unknown Prokofiev through attending a whole sequence of memorable concerts. In 1991, we enjoyed two revelatory Prokofiev series. One, concentrating on the symphonies and conducted by Sir Edward Downes, threw a whole new light on the Seventh Symphony; Downes' performance was delicate, luminous and simply heartbreaking. The other series, spearheaded by Rostropovich, included such rarities as Seven, They Are Seven, and Zdravitsa, giving us a chance to broaden our perspectives. And in the same year Järvi performed the October Cantata for the first time in London. And so it has continued over the past decade. I could also add that other British-based Prokofiev experts whom I respect -- Gerard McBurney, David Fanning, Daniel Jaffé, Marina Frolove-Walker -- feel as strongly as I do about certain misrepresentations, less about Prokofiev's character than about his later scores, that have originated from other sources.

Q: Indeed, in America the perception persists that Prokofiev is not a "serious" composer, for he was neither a sublime mage (like Stravinsky) nor a soul who wore his suffering on his sleeve (like Shostakovich). On the other hand, some recent attempts to argue Prokofiev's case seem wrongheaded; for example, Gergiev and Toradze's recordings of the complete piano concerti seem self-important, perversely (and sometimes sloppily) phrased, and wildly uneven with regard to tempi. What do you think is the best way to introduce the more "intellectual" side of Prokofiev to popular audiences?

A Let's hope more recent publications will redress the misconception that Prokofiev's music is anti-intellectual. It is inevitably the fate of a composer who is also a good melodist to be known by his most popular pieces -- the same applies to Elgar wherever he's known mainly as the composer of Pomp and Circumstance rather than the symphonies. While the works of Prokofiev's Ettal and Paris years do deserve wider circulation, they will never be mainstream repertoire. The main thing is to campaign for their right to be heard, as Noëlle Mann of the Prokofiev Archive has done so much throughout and leading up to 2003. At least you can say "but it's by Prokofiev" -- think of poor old Martinu and even Korngold, who aren't household names.

Q: Or poor Gustav Holst, whose operas are never performed in America.

A So no, I don't think, in the UK at least, Prokofiev is 'unjustly neglected' in any way.

Q: When Betrothal in a Monastery and The Gambler made their premieres at The Met in New York, the productions received a fair (though hardly overwhelming) amount of visibility in the media. But in 2003, the U.S. premiere of Semyon Kotko seemed to come and go with little fanfare. What do you believe is the best way to educate both the media and conservative classical music audiences about unfamiliar repertoire, particularly repertoire that is politically incorrect?

A Understanding Semyon Kotko means having already taken on board Prokofiev's more popular and "accessible" (horrid word) operas. When you consider that this happened at the Met and, the previous year, at the Royal Opera House in London, the amazing thing is not that it met 'with little fanfare', but that it happened at all. Those of us who know and love Prokofiev's works acknowledge that Semyon Kotko contains some of his greatest music, but also know that it lets contemporary audiences down badly in its later acts. It is actually easier to "sell" such a work nowadays on the back of the public's Stalin/Hitler fixations. But I understand those audience members who are deeply offended by the opera's implications in the light of the kulak massacres and the famine. The right way to go about presenting Kotko, then, is to consider it as an opera which tells a story. We must ask: how successful is it musically (the characterizations in the first two acts are superlative), how much is it of its time (in the last act, all too much of its time), and what did it mean to Prokofiev (the Ukrainian link and the background of upheaval are clearly important)?

Q: Although I couldn't see the Met production of Kotko, some critics commented on the satirical way in which the Stalinism of the final act was handled. Do you think it is even possible today -- either in Russia or the West -- to stage Kotko without resorting to arch satire or expressionism as a way of rationalizing its politics? To put it simply, is Kotko, its beautiful melodies and masterful third act notwithstanding, now doomed to be a comedy, or a mere footnote to people's 'Stalin/Hitler fixations'?

A The opera could certainly be presented more clearly than that messy production. The ideal man for the job is someone like our own controversial director Richard Jones, who manages to be both absurdly funny and chilling, not to mention scary, at the same time. But still, the seriousness of Kotko did come through in the Kirov production.

Q: In the United States, Prokofiev's operas have become synonymous with Gergiev, although I know this is less the case in England. But it seems Gergiev has become too burdened with the responsibility of being the sole U.S. ambassador of Prokofiev's operas. Why don't we see in the U.S. other Russian conductors perform the operas?

A Let's not underestimate Gergiev's Atlas-like task. Without him there would probably have been no revival of Semyon Kotko, at least outside of Russia and probably within it -- ever. He is that phenomenon, a popular conductor who uses his position to promote the rich and rare. It's not that he's excluding other talents; it's that he's simply the only conductor who can get such programming past increasingly conservative concert and opera planners. Consider his Rotterdam Prokofiev Festival in September of 2003: that was a once-in-a-lifetime retrospective which will never be repeated. Amazingly, not only did Gergiev do his usual marathon specials -- like performing Alexander Nevsky and the Ivan the Terrible oratorio in a single evening -- but he mounted performances of the later cantatas, which we hadn't heard anywhere else. I flew in for a day and wished I'd been there for the entire festival -- the celebratory atmosphere was very infectious. And meantime, in the UK, not a single Prokofiev opera was staged at all in this anniversary year -- unless you except English National Opera's stunning platform performance at the 2003 Proms.

Q: Although Gergiev's opera productions have won great acclaim, and have ably demonstrated the qualities of Prokofiev's lesser-known operas, no American companies (to my knowledge) have been persuaded to perform any of the operas besides War and Peace and Three Oranges. Is it even possible that the operas will even become part of the repertory? Or is this again the problem of the conservatism of classical music audiences?

A Part of the problem is Prokofiev's unstinting service to the beauties of the Russian language and how he sets it. He makes little compromise for the sake of melody, and although he tells his operatic stories very beautifully, they often require a literary flair from their audience. Even War and Peace, which means so much to everyone who knows Tolstoy, can be intimidating for those unfamiliar with the book.

Q: When I attended the Kirov production of War and Peace at the Met (during the 2002-2003 season), I overheard an amusing conservation during intermission. One elderly man said to another, "This opera doesn't have one memorable moment. I'd rather see Porgy and Bess -- at least Gershwin could write a melody!" While this comment may seem funny to us, it tells us a lot about the state of opera today -- people remain suspicious of operas without Puccini-style melody, and even War and Peace, of all operas, is perceived as insufficiently melodic. What could we possibly say to this person to make him realize the folly of his ways? Or is it too late to change people's minds?

A Well, as I've already said, Prokofiev's particular treatment of the Russian language will be problematic for non-Russian audiences. Despite their big and effective set pieces, these operas are subtle works, and may never be popular with opera-goers. Like Janacek, Berg and Britten, however, Prokofiev may yet appeal to theatregoers who come to the opera without much or any musical baggage.

Q: When interviewed, conductors always seem to enthusiastically claim that more and more young audiences are being drawn to classical music. In America, though, this is highly debatable; when I go to the Met or Lincoln Center, the great majority of the audience has grey hair. We may speak of musical education for the next generation, but this avoids the immediate problem -- that most Americans in their teens, 20's, 30's, and even 40's have no interest in classical music. Is there a real way to reach these people above the incessant din of pop culture?

A It worries me -- and again I can only speak for the UK -- that musical appreciation is so little valued in schools. Kids are taught to play an instrument or to sing in a choir, but are never taught that you needn't be a participant or performer to cherish the wonderful world of classical music as a joy and solace for life. And Prokofiev, like Stravinsky, is the ideal composer for an enthusiastic teacher to use in demonstrating that "classical" music isn't boring. It's just that most children never have the chance to be led in the right direction. Think of the effect that a performance of the Fifth Symphony would have on a teenager -- and yet how many schools are taking their pupils to experience the overwhelming impact of a full orchestra in a concert hall? It makes me mad that journalists harp on elitism and conservatism in classical music; the works themselves, inspiringly presented before being played and conducted, are the thing. It seems we've lost sight of this in an era of watered-down "fusion" concerts, where neither culture has the chance to appear at its authentic best -- for example, when we have works specially written for gamelan ensemble and symphony orchestra. But this is a wider topic that I could rant about for much longer.

Q: Well, then, let's turn to a few specific aspects of Prokofiev's pre-Soviet life and music that you discuss in your biography. It's enlightening to learn that Prokofiev gave the Russian premiere of Schoenberg's Three Piano Pieces, Op 11, at one of the Evenings of Contemporary Music in 1911. But Prokofiev's opinion of, and relationship to, atonal music has never been clear to me. Did Prokofiev have any opinion of Nikolay Roslavets, whose own atonal experiments in the early 1910's were among the most advanced in Russia? I would guess Prokofiev, at very least, was aware of Roslavets?

A He would perhaps have heard the earlier experimental pieces. The recently-published diaries from the years 1907 to 1933, which Prokofiev wrote in a kind of shorthand, missing the vowels, have recently been reassembled and published in two volumes by his elder son Sviatoslav; they will surely enlighten us, though sadly there's no index as yet. But Roslavets' rise in the early 1920's coincided with Prokofiev's own absence from the Soviet Union. Myaskovsky recommends Roslavets to Prokofiev in 1923 with the caution that his music is extremely (from which I would read "excessively") rational. Prokofiev was more aware of Mosolov, of course, because Zavod (The Iron Foundry) was popular in Paris.

Q: In your analysis of the Scythian Suite, you suggest that its sunrise climax evinces a philosophical paradox: it apotheosizes the soon-to-be fading mysticisms of Scriabin and Balmont while sonically acting "as a portent of the joyous revolution to come." (91) I may be in the minority, but the Scythian Suite's sunrise, far less striking than the climaxes of Stravinsky's Rite, always lets me down, even if Gergiev and Kuchar's recordings are sensational enough. Though it's brilliantly orchestrated, the very idea of a "sunrise" seems not only Balmontian, or in line with the neo-primitivism of the so-called Acmeists, but crypto-Wagnerian or simply regressive; even Prokofiev's early Dreams, Op 6, is built around sunrise effects. Besides, the Scythian Suite's sunrise, rather than growing logically or dramatically out of the music, seems like a grand effect without sufficient cause.

A My problem with the Scythian Suite is that it represents the triumph of modernist atmosphere over substance -- I would say the same was true of Bartok's Wooden Prince. The third movement, especially, is all post-Rite moonshine, and a texture-conscious conductor like Boulez or Rattle certainly makes it shine. Gergiev's recent (2003) recording tries, rather deliberately, to thrust forward the melodies; incidentally, I mention the claim in [Eric Roseberry's] liner notes that Prokofiev pursued the Scythian Suite's line no further, though, of course, Seven, They are Seven and The Fiery Angel are its more articulate offspring. The sunrise climax always works in the concert hall, though.

Q: That's probably true -- I've never seen it live. We know Diaghilev was disappointed in the Scythian Suite's music -- what in particular didn't he like?

A Diaghilev, I think, hated any kind of repetition, and it was the Scythian Suite's cod-mythological subject matter -- too much like the Rite -- rather than its musical substance which he rejected.

Q: It's not clear to me how much of a "suite" the Scythian Suite really is. In turning Ala and Lolly into a concert suite, Prokofiev, as you say, "pared away...20 bars of mood music from the original manuscript" (113), and remarked that the piece "runs for about 17 minutes," (111) which is significantly shorter than even the quickest performances of the piece we know today. Are there any differences between the original ballet Ala and Lolly and the Scythian Suite?

A The original score of Ala and Lolly has not, to my knowledge, survived. I think we can take Prokofiev on trust when he says that most of the ballet went in to the suite, which follows the same progression and narrative -- hence the alternative preservation of the original title Ala and Lolly.

Q: Let's move on to Chout -- I was surprised to learn that its original 1915 manuscript audaciously concludes with a reprise of the "dusting off the orchestra" music, quite contrary to the slam-bang finale of the 1920 version we know. You chalk up the crowd-pleasing revision to Diaghilev's meddling, but this calls into question whether or not we've been misappreciating Prokofiev's dramatic intentions all along. Do you think Prokofiev's skills at a dramatist might have been better borne out had Chout's less conventional original ending been preserved?

A Maybe, but the revision is one of many examples of Prokofiev bowing to change and coming up with something exciting and genuinely engaging, not just blandly accessible. I think his changes were generally for the better, theatrically speaking, even if the musicologists might find the originals better. In any case, the ending of the first draft of Chout isn't an instance of music we haven't heard -- though of course the discordant harmonization of the original dance at the end of the 1915 version is something else. I'd like to hear it orchestrated.

Q: You compare the polar endings of the original and final versions of Chout with those of the two versions of The Gambler (115). It's a shame Rozhdestvensky's plan to revive the original version of Gambler in 2000 fell into bureaucratic shambles (122); do you know of any plans to restage this original version or, better yet, record it?

A The "original" Gambler remains, to my knowledge, in the Bolshoi repertoire, though of course without Rozhdestvensky to conduct it. There are no plans that I know of to stage another production, and talk of a recording between Rozhdestvensky and Chandos came to nothing.

Q: Had the original version of Gambler been successfully staged in the late 1910's, do you think Prokofiev might have sooner escaped the shadow of Stravinsky? Might his career and future paths as a modernist composer have turned out differently?

A It's an interesting question -- especially as this is a full-length psychological opera in the Mussorgsky tradition, which as we know from the letters, and especially from the exchanges with Souvchinsky quoted in my book, both Diaghilev and Stravinsky regarded as a dead art-form. But it was only in the Diaghilev sphere that Prokofiev was really in Stravinsky's shadow. His choice of The Fiery Angel as an operatic subject in the 1920s flew against the whole Diaghilev ethos, and indeed all his operas after The Love for Three Oranges continue an older tradition.

Q: For me, Three Oranges, despite its sheer entertainment value, disappoints intellectually. You describe how Prokofiev had actually increased the role of the rival choral factions in the opera's diegetic "audience" (150), but I've always found it problematic that Prokofiev drops this self-reflexive, modernistic device in his final act. Prokofiev, I think, should have followed Tieck's Puss in Boots, where the disruptive interjections of the audience-within-the-play increase as the play progresses. Then the Comedians, or perhaps the Eccentrics, could more meaningfully rescue Fata Morgana at the climax rather than her simply dropping through a trapdoor. Just when Prokofiev should be pushing his modernist intentions, he inexplicably pulls back.

A He's only following in Meyerhold's footsteps -- and of course the radical rescue of Ninetta departs from Gozzi's scenario. Ostensibly the Eccentrics' luring of Fata Morgana into the tower is a last gesture; the rest really belongs to the world of fairy-tale, complete with a "Slava!" chorus, so that justifies Prokofiev's scheme. I don't believe he intended any different ending. Of course it would be interesting if there were two alternatives, like the first and second versions of Strauss's Ariadne Auf Naxos. But at least the happy ending is wound up with commendable swiftness.

Q: The first draft of Fiery Angel, however, did end differently: Renata dies in prison before Ruprecht -- now presumably empowered with knowledge from his travels with Mephisto -- can rescue her. As you say, Prokofiev deemed this ending "clumsy and untheatrical" (229), but it's certainly more dramatically satisfying than the present ending. In light of the final version we have, what is the best way to understand the interjected role of Mephistopheles in the opera? Despite the musical effectiveness of Angel's final inquisition scene, are you disappointed that Prokofiev is, as in the ending of Three Oranges, arguably short-changing his dramaturgy?

A Again, you're asking for something wholly different, when the composer had clearly thought long and hard about what he decided. The ending with Renata in prison smacked too much of Faust, and although the present ending is very sudden, I think it makes excellent sense as music-drama. Admittedly, the final appearance of Mephistopheles and Ruprecht on the balcony is unsatisfactory, but I can't object to Prokofiev's thumbnail sketch of Mephisto -- it tells us with admirable concision all we need to know (as does Faust's idealistic solo). Again, the Mussorgsky link is strong.

Q: You briefly remark (139) that "too little has surfaced" of the proposed Fiery Angel vocal suite for orchestra and female soloist; what, in fact, remains extant?

A I now understand that the suite is lodged in the Prokofiev Archive in London, though I haven't seen it. This is something which surfaced at a rather late stage.

Q: What do you think is the best way to approach Prokofiev's incessant recycling of the same materials in different works, especially from The Fiery Angel and Prodigal Son? Comparing Fiery Angel to the Third Symphony, the music seems to have the same inherent effect -- perhaps even the same meaning -- whether it's contextualized as opera or symphony. Prodigal Son and the Fourth Symphony, however, creative very different thematic effects from the same material. At the risk of oversimplification, did Prokofiev generally think more in terms of a pure musical content rather than the form or musical genre that might envelop that content?

A I argue my feelings on these subjects in the sections in my book on the Third and Fourth Symphonies, especially to the effect that the textures of the opera seem to have been carried over without any change in the Third Symphony, which remains a "Fiery Angel Symphony." Part of the fascination lies in the tension between diatonic melody and chromatic surround, which always interested Prokofiev. Sometimes he simply transferred themes in a slightly opportunistic way, and sometimes -- as in the case of the Eugene Onegin music that was later transplanted to War and Peace -- there's a careful philosophic and literary connection or commentary going on. In this instance, Onegin's envy of youthful freshness is thematically translated into Prince Andrey and his world-weariness at the tender age of 31.

Q: I've always wondered about the complete Egyptian Nights stage music, which contains 44 numbers. Can you give an account of the differences between the complete score and the 20-minute suite?

A Not without the scores of either presently at hand. In my book, I hope I've outlined the real problem of the suite -- that is, it lacks a narrative core without the Pushkin monologue-melodrama at its heart. A CD version might do well to include a recitation of the Pushkin along with, or interspersed with, the music.

Q: You're the only critic I can recall who emphasizes the importance of the Opus 57 Symphonic Song, a transitional work in Prokofiev's output that you characterize as the "underrated missing link between the far less grandly symphonic Fourth Symphony of 1930 and the Fifth of 1945." (312) Like the First String Quartet and, to a lesser degree, the Sonata for Two Violins, this work represents to me an interim period where, not yet fully committed to his new simplicity, Prokofiev was searching for a serious, cosmopolitan, international voice. If I understand you correctly, however, you do indeed see the work's final D-major "achievement," in its "darkness-conflict-achievement" program, as a foreshadowing of the new simplicity?

A Yes. The emergence of the melody (actually in C major to start with) I regard as a nod in the direction of the new simplicity, and the whole as a kind of paradigm. In my talks, I frequently quote that melody as one of the true originals for the way it departs very elaborately from the tonic before steering back to it. As for the cosmopolitanism, I don't think Prokofiev consciously courted it.

Q: Apart from the Symphonic Song, which works from Prokofiev's pre-Soviet period do you feel have been most neglected?

A The more complicated ones -- those in which, as Prokofiev put it, "the outlines of a real face" only begin to emerge after two or three play-throughs: the Fourth and Fifth Piano Concertos, and even, in its own whiter, neo-Stravinskyan way, On the Dnieper. The Fiery Angel now has a life its own, at least in Russia and England. I was a little more cynical about the Quintet, Op 39 and the two extra Trapeze movements until I heard them played by musicians from the Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra -- an extraordinary, poleaxing performance. You could sense that everyone in the audience was exhilarated by it.

Q: Can you describe these two extra movements from Trapeze, which I (and most of us in America) haven't heard? Are these the same two movements we know from the Divertimento, Op 43, or are they somehow different?

A These two movements come at the beginning of the ballet, as the Overture and Matelote, and essentially they're the two movements subsequently used in the Divertimento. Not that we know exactly what they were meant to sound like; the composer Samuel Becker has had to guess from materials provided by Noëlle Mann of the Serge Prokofiev Archive in London. She, by the way, has done more than anyone to ensure that Prokofiev is remembered 'in the round'.

Q: Prokofiev often expressed the fear that history would remember him only as the composer of The Classical Symphony and Lt. Kizhe, and that his serious works would remain unjustly neglected. This, of course, is more or less exactly what has happened. How would you like to see Prokofiev remembered? How might he be remembered fifty or a hundred years from now?

A He'll be remembered in the round, of course, in all his diversity, breadth and depth, wit and tragedy. Since his determinedly popular pieces are so very popular, of course the vast majority of people will know him by Peter and the Wolf, the "Montagues and Capulets" and the Kizhe Troika -- these are the three tunes I hum if trying to place him for puzzled acquaintances. But that's no bad thing. At least the music-loving public has had a good chance to get to know the less familiar symphonies and operas. I just don't buy in to this 'unjustly neglected' line which various interest-groups are still touting.

Q: True, there's a difference between being neglected and being misunderstood.

A If there has been a big shift in how Prokofiev is perceived, it's to do with his respectability in academic circles: Shostakovich has already been embraced, and Prokofiev is now beginning to be taken seriously there too. It will be interesting to see what the attitude is like in 2006, when Shostakovich will be taking most of the limelight -- we'll then see whether Prokofiev will have much of a look-in. And I hope by then the second volume will be ready to provoke further debate...





Copyright © 1999-2004 Allegro Media. All rights reserved.